ࡱ >
! " # $ % & ' ( ) * + , - . / 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 : ; < = > ? @ A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z [ \ ] ^ _ ` a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z { | } ~ R o o t E n t r y F ( 3Z W o r d D o c u m e n t C o m p O b j ^ 's behind it. Self-sacrifice is often the name of the game of motherhood, but you find plenty of women who find motherhood quite fulfilling. I am one of them.
"You may say that those who follow their hearts often suffer for it, but
I've seen people who wasted their whole lives in dutiful self-sacrifice on the altar of some lousy, boring marriage that should have ended long before."
So are you saying that a lousy, boring marriage constitutes sufficient reason for divorce? I find that rather disgusting. A seriously abusive relationship, perhaps. Depends on the circumstances. But boring is the fault of both parties, and if they want to do something about it, they sure as heck can!
When it comes down to the crunch, there will come a time when two married people need each other very much. This is when they get old and they no longer have the youthful illuion of being indestructable, and realize that if they are going to maintain a measure of independence, they need to support each other. I am rapidly approaching that age. Come back to me in a couple of decades and see if you don't see my side of it a bit more.
I took care of my mother-in-law during her last year. I wasn't there all the time, but if it hadn't been for us, she would have had to leave her apartment, which she desperately did not want to have to do. Her wish was possible ONLY because my family believes in commitment, and several members stepped in to make her dream possible. It was very rewarding to each of us personally.
We humans are not capable of true altruism. Self-sacrifice for the right motives is one of the most rewarding activities on the face of the earth.
Pat
kc
truth
Fri Nov 19 13:26:32 1999
i'm 'pa', and i think we just have to not be judgemental, but be gentle and helpful, in helping others continue (or start) their journey of healing. at the time
i felt it was my only choice, and at first i felt relieved, but soon after i knew that what i did was wrong. not just wrong for the baby, but wrong for me,
my whole being. i left God and the church, never imagining i'd be accepted back. but He forgives! anyway, the truth will never change, b/c God is truth,
and God doesn't change, in His love, His mercy, and also in His commandments. so whether someone is sorry or not for what they did, it's still wrong. i
pray all live to regret and repent of all their sins, whether its abortion or not.
perfect example of what i mean, read below..and i'm not including it here to give people 'the guilties'. it's just that abortion really is Wrong, and we have
no right to play God, in deciding whether our baby lives or not:
URL: http://www.sign.org/msgdetail.phtml?idnum=691
Title: Message on Sunday, November 7, 1999 via John Leary
Jesus said: "My people, you have been given a
choice for life or a choice for death. In every
pregnancy there is a decision to have the baby
or to kill the baby by abortion. Each new life
is precious and unique and has its own right to
life by My gift of its soul. When someone
chooses to take a life, they are the ones who
will have to answer for this blood on their
hands at the judgment. The doctors, who do this
killing for hire, also will have to answer for
their murderous acts as well. The guardian
angels of these souls witness before Me the
numbers of children that you kill every year.
Do you think My justice will let these offenses
continue? I tell you, I am bringing swift
justice among you in many of your natural
disasters as a chastisement for your apathy to
the taking of all of these lives. You have
placed a price on all of the heads of these
abortions and you value life very little. My
people, if you do not repent of your sins and
change your killing habits, you will see much
more serious destruction rain down on your
country. Wake up, America, before your funeral
will come to pass."
Mary
Which Bܥe # % , l , l
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Mary
Self-sacrificing marriage = Dullsville.
Fri Nov 19 01:41:19 1999
Dear Pat;
You say that "In many cultures, parents choose their children's mates. It turns out that marriages in those cultures actually last better than in our culture.
This is because children honor their parents and will obey, and because one can usually make a good marriage with someone by working hard it."
Notice that as the economic bases of those cultures change to allow greater independence for the individual, the arranged marriages are usually the first
things to go. People will put up with nearly anything if they have no choice. The minute they do have a choice, they tend to REBEL against those who
kept 'em down. People vote with their feet. So-called "traditional" marriage just doesn't fit the circumstances of many people's lives nowadays.
Marriage is not necessary to social health. Look at Iceland. Icelanders rarely marry, and they have one of the safest, most stable societies in the world.
Please don't idealise life in the shtetl. People jumped at the chance to leave.
"The idea that we have to have romantic love before we can marry someone successfully is actually detrimental, because the only kind of love that
makes a marriage work is self-sacrificing love."
Sounds deadly. Originally, marriage was basically an economic partnership. In economic terms, divorce can be highly rational. The high rate of divorce
is not purely a product of romantic disappointments.
"Romantic love is nothing but an emotion, and emotions are fickle. Self-sacrificing love is a decision, not an emotion."
Fickle, Schmickle. Attraction, infatuation, and falling in love are some of the best things about being alive, whether they last or not. A steady diet of
self-sacrifice is bound to leave a person sour and resentful. I've seen it happen! You may say that those who follow their hearts often suffer for it, but
I've seen people who wasted their whole lives in dutiful self-sacrifice on the altar of some lousy, boring marriage that should have ended long before.
Mary
Dear Mary,
"Notice that as the economic bases of those cultures change to allow greater independence for the individual, the arranged marriages are usually the first
things to go. People will put up with nearly anything if they have no choice. The minute they do have a choice, they tend to REBEL against those who
kept 'em down."
This is true. My point was that romantic love is not necessary to make a marriage work, and that it can be a detriment if people make a commitment they can't live up to and then refuse to do what is necessary to make the commitment work. I don't advocate arranged marriages; just the kind of commitment to doing what people promised to do that seems to characterize those commitments.
" Marriage is not necessary to social health. Look at Iceland. Icelanders rarely marry, and they have one of the safest, most stable societies in the world."
Are you saying that they don't have a legal marriage ceremony? I recognize the validity of common-law marriage, and I know legally what that means. I would assume that Icelanders have common-law marriages, but it is something I will look into.
" Sounds deadly. Originally, marriage was basically an economic partnership. In economic terms, divorce can be highly rational."
Everybody I have ever known well who got a divorce suffered terrible economic deprivation as a result.
"Attraction, infatuation, and falling in love are some of the best things about being alive, whether they last or not."
Sure. But when the emotions flip-flop, that's not a reason to break a commitment.
" A steady diet of
self-sacrifice is bound to leave a person sour and resentful."
Depends on whatible is that from?
Fri Nov 19 15:11:54 1999
Dear KC;
The long passage that you reprint is prefaced with the words, "Jesus said". I've just got done paging through the Bible like mad, and I can find no such
quote attributed to Jesus, or even anything similar. You seem to put these sentiments down as Jesus' literal remarks "via John Leary". Do you mean to
say that a person named John Leary is somehow authorised to add to the attested words of Jesus?
Mary
KC
truth
Fri Nov 19 15:56:05 1999
there's a 'prophecy' website (one among many..!) at www.sign.org, and john leary is one of those receiving messages/visions from Jesus and Mary.
some may not believe the messages are true though.
The idea that God still speaks through modern-day prophets is, at best, highly questionable. I can show biblically that it is forbidden. But that is neither here nor there.
Abortion IS wrong, and the words are accurate in their content, if not their source.
The point is, sometimes false prophets will say true things. But they have to speak truth 100% of the time for them to be of God. No modern-day prophet has done this.
I am suspicious of the web site because it claims to have words from Mary as well. I totally reject the basis for the contention.
But I support the concept that abortion is wrong.
Pat
Pat Goltz
Re: glad you've been able to find healing
Fri Nov 19 18:41:32 1999
The truth is, seeking forgiveness for an abortion and forgiving oneself is one of the hardest things in the world to do. I don't pretend to have the answer
for all women. I help those I can. But true healing is up to God.
The important thing is our willingness to be there for women who have been victimized by abortion, to comfort them and lift them up.
If women really understood just how devastating abortion is both emotionally and spiritually for most of us, abortion would be outlawed tomorrow.
Pat
kc
truth
Fri Nov 19 18:51:00 1999
well said! :>
Anonymous
glad you've been able to find healing
Fri Nov 19 13:42:11 1999
Thanks for pointing out that we all need to be kind and help one another along with healing. Do you have any suggestions for those out there who are
having a hard time healing spiritually from the abortion? There are an awful lot of people out there involved in abortions who consider themselves faithful
religious followers, and then afterwards have a hard time seeking forgiveness from God.
The truth is, seeking forgiveness for an abortion and forgiving oneself is one of the hardest things in the world to do. I don't pretend to have the answer for all women. I help those I can. But true healing is up to God.
The important thing is our willingness to be there for women who have been victimized by abortion, to comfort them and lift them up.
If women really understood just how devastating abortion is both emotionally and spiritually for most of us, abortion would be outlawed tomorrow.
Pat
KC
truth
Fri Nov 19 14:57:45 1999
yea, they can go to a rachel's vineyard retreat! it costs about $130..? but they'll definitely work with someone if they can't afford that much, b/c they're
all about bringing people (men and women) to healing in Jesus, from their abortion. many think, gee why do i need Jesus.. well once ya get to know
Him, THEN you'll know why! :> and like true love, once you know it, you don't want to leave! anyway, i went on the rachels vineyard retreat, i was so
scared to go, but it was the BEST thing i ever did. God's love is so tender, it just breaks and melts your cold heart!!!! :> support groups are also
starting to pop up in various areas. the 'Sisters of Life' in Bronx NY have one day retreats, and follow up support group meetings, which occur once a
month. call 718-881-8008 for more info. also, the people at rachel's vineyard can help provide info so you can get a support group started (or even
bring one of their wkend retreats) in your area.
for more info check:
http://www.rachelsvineyard.org
also, check the "Elliot Institute" website (I met David Reardon, he's awesome!!!!!!):
http://www.afterabortion.org
Anonymous
for anyone struggling with suicide
Fri Nov 19 12:58:20 1999
Read This First. It isn't explicitly geared towards people with post-abortion grief, but since post-abortion grief can lead to suicidal thoughts, I thought
the link would be worth sharing.
May
suicide:survivor's perspective
Fri Nov 19 13:08:53 1999
Those left behind can feel guilt for not doing more, constantly wondering what they could have done more to prevent the suicide, and also those left
behind can feel a tremendous amount of anger, and you want to keep it inside, because it's culturally accepted that we only say good things about the
dead, but there is still a tremendous anger and you feel awful for feeling it.
Tasha
I've decided...
Fri Nov 19 09:26:48 1999
I'm no longer coming here. I find it quite funny that you people can't believe that I'm not emotionally disturbed by what I had done. You are all trying to
come up with excuses for me. It's really sad actually that if a person were to come here and actually was upset and just trying to hide it, that the things
that some of you people have come up with would hurt them even worse. ESPECIALLY LG. You people have no idea how I react to situations and
how I really feel. I tried explaining in the best way I knew how, and you ended up twisting it around to where I am a sick and fucked up individual.
Some of you really do need to get a life. That's all I have to say. And don't bother replying about anything I said because as I said before, I won't be
returning.
Prolifeman
Having as much experience as I have in this...
Fri Nov 19 15:28:32 1999
I cannot say every woman on the planet, or every man, for that matter, whose had a child aborted MUST suffer emotional harm. However, most are in
denial. A temp phase of prochoice activism. I have seen it so many times. The USUAL attitude following an abortion is YOURS. Claims of mild
sadness, etc. Typically within 5 years or so the fall comes, often leading to suidical tendencies without help from professionals. Too many people have
been ruined by abortion to make the pc propaganda claims correct. In fact, the fact that you came here AT ALL is possible evidence of your inner hurt.
Its not guilt generated by lifers. Women who have aborted KNOW deep down its wrong, and they fight it to prevent psychological damage
temporarily, kind of like war soldiers in Viet Nam. If you dont consider them human, its easier to deal with emotionally. Usually it catches up to you. I
cannot be certain, you might have just came here to prove a point. But more likely, you will spend more time in nondebate forums and in PASS places
online and in real life because you have hidden PASS which will only get worse without treatment. Again, the mere fact of your arguing with lifers here,
as opposed to merely saying each is entitled to their view and not even mentioning it, as nobody would know otherwise, is possibly telling. Perhaps you
really feel regret, and are taking baby steps, and you secretly agree more than you admit with the lifers here about the rightness or wrongness of the
abortion. It wouldnt be the first time I have seen women proclaim all about how they "werent hurt" by their abortion and "I jsut wanted you lifers to
know that" that such a woman was secretly in pain or the denial stage prior to a fall. So you will have to forgive the skepticism on the part of many here
whove also been in your shoes and did the same...
PLM
PLM,
What you say in GENERAL is true. It might not be true of Tasha.
We need to keep our generalizations just that. Aiming them at a specific individual is counterproductive.
Before I leave you, I want to tell you something that happened to me. I was in Milwaukee debating abortion from a pro-life feminist perspective. On that occasion, there were three of us and three of them. I wasn't the most eloquent speaker on behalf of women who have had abortions, though, by a long shot. The most eloquent speaker was one of them. At the end of the session, she stood up, said loudly that she had had an abortion, and it had not harmed her emotionally, and then she broke down right there in front of everyone, and cried uncontrollably.
Two women in the audience took off their pro-choice buttons and left.
Breaking out of the denial phase almost always happens without warning. It can be devastating. We have learned to anticipate certain occasions when it is more likely than others, but no one can predict. That is part of what makes it so hard to handle when it happens.
Pat
debbby88
I understand
Fri Nov 19 12:34:32 1999
I wouldn't come back here either if I had been coming for help and I got some of the responses you have. I don't blame you. I have been exasperated
with this board so many times because the more people who come here, the more some people can't swallow their differences and try to help instead
of being hateful or trying to start fights, and in a lot of cases it seems, sorry to say, but pro-lifers who hate women who abort. If they can't say anything
good or nice, why are they here? Do they realize they are hurting people? Do they care? Can't they take it to a debate board? The board rules state no
personal attacks or insults. Tasha, if you ever want to email me, feel free to click on my name. I wish you the best.
Anonymous
maybe we should just try to start over
Fri Nov 19 13:00:17 1999
I've posted a couple of new posts to get this board back on track towards discussing healing. If anyone else would like to post a new note about a
post-abortion grief issue, feel free to do so.
Mary
Please don't listen to the jerks, Tasha!
Thu Nov 18 10:03:34 1999
Dear Tasha;
I'm sorry that you had to experience the difficulty of having a pregnancy that you couldn't keep. I am glad that you were able to decide what was the
best way to resolve that situation. It sounds like you put quite a bit of thought into your decision, and that was wise.
Some people will insult you for making the choice you made. Please try not to let them get you down! They seem to be people who get their jollies by
making other people feel bad. They're the ones who ought to be ashamed, not you.
It's normal to have unhappy feelings after an abortion, and if you do, please don't be afraid to seek counselling.
It's also normal to feel relieved; you've made a responsible decision, and you have a right to move on.
Finally, I just want to say that I support your right to make your own decisions and if you want to ask me anything, my name is clickable.
Mary
LG
Wouldn't Couldn't
Fri Nov 19 01:00:36 1999
Tasha didn't have a pregnancy she couldn't keep. She had one that she wouldn't keep. Lets not get our semantics mixed up.
I wondered, how are you able to discern peoples' motives over such distances? I didn't realize how clarivoyant you are. I'll have to be more careful
about what I'm thinking.
LG
LG
Styx & Stonz
Thu Nov 18 22:42:48 1999
Dear Mary:
Did I strike a nerve? My message is not a personal insult since I have no idea who Tanya, or what ever her name is, is. No it's not an insult - it's my
opinion. I think that she's irresponsible and wrong. Could you please explain to me why I'm mistaken?
You also missed my point about Manson and Mengle. These guys rationalized what they did. I doubt that they were even aware that what they did was
wrong. In the same way, in my opinion, it takes an icy detachment and a lack of reflection to rationalize killing in such mundane terms.
I'm not some far right christian weirdo or a blind pro-lifer, or even a pro-lifer at all. I'm a thinker who is shocked by such a bland monolog on death, so
forgive me for reacting, but I think the other side of the coin should be looked at in this case.
By the way, you have gotten your wish many times over in the bitter experience dept. Have you had any such experiences yourself? If you had, maybe
our viewpoints would be closer together since adversity tends to alter your thinking and your heart.
LG
Pat Goltz
Re: No Psychological Consequences
Wed Nov 17 19:03:21 1999
Looking Glass,
Your message is inappropriate. Until Tasha herself realizes the significance of what she has done, your message won't make sense to her. Once she
does, she will do it to herself without your help.
This doesn't mean I don't agree with you, but I've been around the block a few times, and I know that your approach is counter-productive.
Pat
Mary
YOU ought to know better.
Thu Nov 18 09:41:35 1999
Dear Pat;
Before you go any further towards implicit agreement with the substance Looking Glass' post, I'll remind you that s/he:
1. Likened Tasha to Charles Manson and Josef Mengele
2. Accused Tasha secretly torturing small animals
3. Generally slurred Tasha's character by assuming that her reasons for her actions were comparatively trivial (pursuit of orgasms, etc).
Which of these are you not inclined to disagree with? You criticise LG's approach on the grounds that it is "counter-productive". My, that sounds like a
political assessment! I criticise this stuff on the grounds that it is *stupid, cruel, inaccurate, wrong, and gratuitous*.
Mary
Mary,
In response to your message to me (not here) that maybe I, too, likened Tasha to Mengele et al., after reading a few messages (but not all that I have missed) I realize that I have not yet seen most of the messages to which you refer. I don't recall the message of which you spoke, but I will see if it is my faulty memory, or just my two or three day absence.
No, I do NOT agree that Tasha is like Mengele, or that she tortures small animals. Nor do I assume that her life is one of pursuit of orgasms. For the record.
I have to go take care of some outdoor errands before it gets dark. When I come back, I will read the rest of it and respond appropriately. I assume that my ISP won't let me on for several hours because it is about that time of the day, so don't be surprised at a delay.
Pat
Looking Glass
No Psychological Consequences
Wed Nov 17 02:12:05 1999
Nice try. You cloak your admission of cowardice in nonsence about loving children. It is the dizzying heights of irresponsibility to create a life for the
sake of a few orgasms while in your cicumstances. How could you kill a part of yourself - your mom & dad's first grandchild, and have 'no
psychological consequences'? What an icy absence of self reflection! Charles Manson and Dr. Mengle would have been proud of you and your cruelty!
I bet you torture small animals when no one else is looking! Shame on you!
OK, I saw the message again, and you are right; I did see it. No, I don't agree with anything LG said. I apologize for not being more plain. I didn't think ANYONE would take those accusations seriously. I am deeply disappointed to be wrong. I thought it was SELF-EVIDENT that LG was just being hateful!
Once more, I should have condemned the content of the message. My point was that spewing hate is counter-productive, and that is EXACTLY what I meant. It is HATE, not truth. 'Nuff said?
Pat
Folks,
I wish to address all of you, all three sides, on the question of hateful messages.
First of all, to the pro-choice people.
I want to make it clear that I never condone hate speech in any form. If I fail to address hate speech specifically, I want you to call it to my attention. Thank you, Mary, for doing just that.
Hate speech against people who have been involved in abortion in some way and say they have no regrets or negative emotions is, to my mind, a reaction to coming out of denial. Elizabeth Kübler-Ross talks about stages people go through as they approach death. Denial is one of the first stages. The person denies that s/he is dying. After denial comes anger. I think that sometimes anger can amount to rage. The dying person often directs her anger toward God. A person who feels guilty about involvement with abortion, particularly, a woman who has had an abortion, may lash out at people who are part of the institutions that put her through such pain. She isn't ready yet to confront her own role in the matter. So she lashes out indiscriminately against people who are part of the institutions that inflict abortion on defenseless women such as herself, either through making it too easy, or by being a party to coercion or fraud or other kinds of deception. It doesn't matter whether the person being lashed out at was personally involved in her own abortion or not. The fact that so many of the people who WERE involved were essentially anonymous doesn't help. So such a person will lash out at anybody who promotes the idea that abortion is acceptable, especially toward those who promote it as a solution, or who have had abortions and say they feel no negative emotions, or very few.
Folks, listen up. What I am about to say now is critical.
HATE SPEECH TOWARD PEOPLE INVOLVED IN ABORTION IS PART OF POST ABORTION STRESS SYNDROME. IF YOU HAVE NEVER RECOGNIZED THE EXISTENCE OF PASS, NOW IS THE TIME TO DO IT. THIS IS SOME OF THE BEST EVIDENCE OF WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO TELL YOU. ABORTION IS SO DEVASTATING TO SOME WOMEN THAT THEY MUST HATE IN ORDER TO SURVIVE.
'Nuff said?
There are also those who hate because someone close to them has had an abortion. These people may never have been involved in abortion personally. Their hate is evidence of something ELSE we have been trying to say: abortion doesn't just hurt women and their children. IT HURTS EVERYBODY CLOSE TO THEM. We had a prime example of this in this very room just recently.
So please pay attention. This hate MEANS something. It means that abortion is destructive. To the women, their loved ones, and to society.
Now I want to address the pro-life people.
Folks, having realized all of the above, and most of us do, we have a job to do. We need to point out to the haters that hate is murder. If the hater believes in the Bible, it doesn't hurt to quote Matthew 5:21-22, "You have heard it was said to those of old, You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment. But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' [a deadly insult] shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire." If a person is guilty of murder, spewing hate speech just adds to guilt. It solves nothing. If the person doesn't accept the Bible, muddle along as best you can.
Having condemned the behavior in no uncertain terms, we need to tell the hate speaker that s/he is not ready to participate in this board. There needs to be a board for the haters. They have issues to resolve. Let us do everything in our power to encourage those people to resolve their issues before they come to a place where we try to provide healing to women who have had abortions. This encourages communicating with them privately in love. We have a job to do, and hate speakers need us just as much as the women who are in agony over their abortions. Let us never forget it.
And now, to the haters:
I will be very direct and very explicit. Hate speech is murder. If you are dealing with feelings that you have been involved in murder, don't make matters worse by coming here and murdering women who have not yet dealt with their own involvement and healed. Deal with your own hate first. When you first come here with hate speech, I will try to be gentle. But if you persist, I WILL BE BLUNT. HATE SPEECH IS MURDER. 'Nuff said?
Pat
Anonymous
Try to understand where we're coming from
Fri Nov 19 12:10:32 1999
I can't speak for everyone, but I think that most of us are here out of genuine concern and aren't trying to hurt you.
Some of us have been there personally, and many others have experience talking to post-abortion women. Maybe it does seem "funny" that we would
talk about post-abortion regrets and denial, since post-abortion problems are rarely talked about in general society, but we're not bringing the issues up
to attack you. In fact, I'm only spending the time writing this out of concern for your future well-being. Sure, you may not ever have problems. Some
people are fine with their abortions. But, then again, maybe you will find as you go through life that your feelings have changed (you went through this at
a young age and had previously considered abortion immoral, and it sounds like you felt pressured to abort due to health problems, all of which can be
factors in later having trouble coping with an abortion... see Identifying High Risk Abortion Patients for more information).
There are lots of people who have been in situations like yours who eventually discover they're not feeling all right with their abortions after all. You
don't have to talk to us. I just want you to know that if you do feel bad someday that it's okay and that others have been there too.
Home Page Index || Resources || FREE Book
IDENTIFYING HIGH RISK ABORTION PATIENTS
David C. Reardon, Ph.D.
While there is intense controversy regarding how many women experience post-abortion psychological problems, even pro-abortion researchers
admit that at least some women are negatively effected. According to the disposition of the individual researcher, these negative reactions may be
loosely labeled as "serious," "significant" or "minor" and the number of women experiencing these reactions may be vaguely described as "many,"
"some" or "only a few." But statistics are less subjective than adjectives. In one review of the literature, the lowest reported rate for adverse
post-abortion outcomes was 6 percent, with most reports ranging from 12 to 25 percent, and the highest estimates rising above 50 percent. With
such findings, only the most biased of researchers are so rash to claim that "no one" experiences post-abortion trauma.
Because the existence of post-abortion trauma is now almost universally accepted, many researchers are now focusing on the factors which may
identify which women are at higher risk. From a political viewpoint, researchers who favor abortion on demand are hoping to show that the "few"
women who do report negative post-abortion reactions were actually emotionally "unbalanced" prior to the abortion. If this is true, they argue, then it
is possible that the abortion itself is not the cause of psychological injury, but instead women who were previously "unbalanced" are unfairly blaming
their problems on abortion.
BLAMING THE VICTIM
This "politically correct" view of post-abortion trauma includes a kernel of truth surrounded by a lot of "blaming the victim." It is certainly true that
women who are suffering from mental disorders or have previously suffered psychological trauma are more likely to subsequently report more
severe negative post-abortion reactions. Indeed, if one thing is clear from post-abortion research over the last forty years, it is that abortion is
contraindicated when a woman has mental health problems.
This is true because abortion is always stressful. How well a person copes with this stress depends on the individual's resiliency and the conditions
under which the stress occurs. When a woman's psychological state is already fragile, the stress of an abortion can more easily overwhelm her. But
the fact that she was more vulnerable to stress than others does not mean that the abortion is not the cause of her psychological injuries.
If a glass plate and a plastic plate are both dropped, the glass plate is likely to shatter, while the same stress may cause the plastic plate to only crack
or chip. In either case, the damage cannot be blamed on the material; it must be blamed on the fall. While the extent of the damage is related to the
nature of the material, the fall itself is the direct cause of the damage.
In the same way, while the nature of an individual psyche determines the extent of post-abortion injuries, it is the abortion itself which is the direct
cause of these injuries.
This "blame the victim" strategy which is being employed by some pro-abortion researchers is not new. It is identical to the type of reasoning used
during World War I when veterans suffering from "shell shock" were diagnosed by military psychiatrists as "malingerers" or even cowards. In an age
when fighting for one's country was romantically idealized as adventurous passage into manhood, this "politically correct" diagnosis was necessary to
deflect attention away from the fact that modern warfare was often more traumatic than ennobling. Military officials therefore attempted to suppress
reports of psychiatric casualties because accurate reports would have had a demoralizing effect on the public.
In the same way, when pro-abortion researchers are confronted with women who suffer from post-abortion trauma, there is a tendency to blame the
woman for being "whiners" or "dysfunctional," since it is common knowledge in pro-abortion circles that abortion normally "empowers" women.
Some pro-abortion researchers even argue that women should not be told of the psychological risks associated with abortion because such
"demoralizing" information may make them even more prone to an adverse outcome. It is better, they would claim, to be ignorantly optimistic about
the future than informed and worried.
WOMEN AT RISK
The comments above are useful for understanding the impetus behind much of the recent efforts of pro-abortion researchers. With this in mind, we
can now look at some of the very useful findings which these same researchers have made in the area of cataloging pre-identifying factors which can
be used to predict post-abortion psychological sequelae.
The risk factors for post-abortion psychological maladjustments can be divided into two general categories. The first category includes women for
whom there exists significant emotional, social, or moral conflicts regarding the contemplated abortion. The second category includes women for
whom there are developmental problems, including immaturity, or pre-existing and unresolved psychological problems. Women with characteristics
in either or both of these categories would properly be classified as high risk patients.
Conversely, a low risk patient can be described as a woman who has maturely, thoughtfully, and freely arrived at her abortion decision and has no
emotional, social, or moral conflicts which challenge that decision.
The following outline summarizes the major risk factors and includes pre-identifying characteristics upon which women can be screened for these
risk factors.
RISK FACTORS PREDICTING POST-ABORTION PSYCHOLOGICAL SEQUELAE
I. CONFLICTED DECISION
A. Difficulty making the decision, ambivalence, unresolved doubts1,2,11,14,16,17,19,23,27,30,36,39,40
1. Moral beliefs against abortion
a. Religious or conservative values1,17,27,31,35,36
b. Negative attitudes toward abortion7
c. Feelings of shame or social stigma attached to abortion1
d. Strong concerns about secrecy37
2. Conflicting maternal desires27,23
a. Originally wanted or planned pregnancy11,17,21,23,39
b. Abortion of wanted child due to fetal abnormalities2,5,11,14,15,20,22
c. Therapeutic abortion of wanted pregnancy due to maternal health risk2,11,14,20,32,36
d. Strong maternal orientation35,27
e. Being married6
f. Prior children19,35
g. Failure to take contraceptive precautions, which may indicate an ambivalent desire to become pregnant4
h. Preoccupation with fantasies of fetus, including sex and awareness of due date.16
3. Second or third trimester abortion,20,31,32,36 which generally indicates strong ambivalence or a coerced abortion of a "hidden"
pregnancy.
B. Feels pressured or coerced11,12,14,27,33,35,39,40
1. Feels pressured to have abortion
a. By husband or boyfriend
b. By parents
c. By doctor, counselor, employer, or others
2. Feels decision is not her own, or is "her only choice"14
3. Feels pressured to choose too quickly13,18
C. Decision is made with biased, inaccurate, or inadequate information13,35,36
II. PSYCHOLOGICAL OR DEVELOPMENTAL LIMITATIONS
A. Adolescence, minors having an increased risk3,9,12,13,23,26,32,35
B. Prior emotional or psychiatric problems2,4,11,14,17,19,20,27,32
1. Poor use of psychological coping mechanisms1,23,27
2. Prior low self-image27,33,35,40
3. Poor work pattern 4,40
4. Prior unresolved trauma35
5. A history of sexual abuse or sexual assault.17,25,38
6. Blames pregnancy on her own character flaws, rather than on chance, others, or on correctable mistakes in behavior23,24,29
7. Avoidance and denial prior to abortion10
C. Lack of social support
1. Few friends 4,40
2. Made decision alone, without assistance from partner28
3. A poor or unstable relationship with male partner 4,19,27,33,39
4. Lack of support from parents and family, either to have baby or to have abortion1,7,8,14,23,28,40
5. Lack of support from male partner, either to have baby or to have abortion1,4,7,8,14,19,23,27,28,32,34,39,40
6. Accompanied to abortion by male partner24
D. Prior abortion(s)11,33,35,40
THE ROLE OF THE MALE
The attitude of the male partner toward the pregnancy is an important factor in a woman's abortion decision and is also significantly related to how
she will adjust after the abortion. Because numerous studies have found support from the partner to be an important predictor of good post-abortion
adjustment, researchers were recently startled by the finding that accompaniment to the abortion by the male partner was actually a predictor of
greaterpost-abortion depression.
This finding suggests that an outward show of support, accompaniment to the abortion clinic, is not an accurate measure of the emotional support a
woman feels. Instead, accompaniment by the male partner may actually indicate one or more of the following: 1) greater pre-abortion anxiety which
led the woman to insist on accompaniment; 2) overt or subtle coercion on the part of the male who is "making sure" she does the "right thing;" or, 3)
a more intimate relationship exists between the partners and this greater intimacy is being stressed by the abortion. In this third scenario, the
unplanned pregnancy may be perceived by the woman as a "test" of her partner's commitment to their relationship. She may privately be willing to
have the baby, and seal their mutual commitment, if he takes this as opportunity to demonstrate his commitment. Instead, his lack of enthusiasm for,
or hostile reaction to, the pregnancy causes her to doubt the depth and endurance of their relationship.
In short, when a woman is accompanied to an abortion by her male partner, the woman is more likely to be choosing abortion because her partner
has manipulated her into doing so, or because he has exposed to her a lack of commitment to their relationship. In neither case does she truly feel
supported.
CONCLUSION
While present research is unable to accurately establish what percentage of women suffer from any specific symptom of post-abortion trauma, it is
clear that post-abortion psychological disorders do occur. Indeed, the published literature demonstrates that serious emotional and psychological
complications following an abortion are probably more common than serious physical complications.
The present literature has also successfully identified statistically significant factors which can be used to pre-identify individuals who are most
vulnerable to experiencing post-abortion psychological sequelae. Examination of these risk factors suggests that many, if not most women seeking
abortion have one or more of these high risk characteristics.
Based on these findings, most of which have been published by researchers who favor legalized abortion, it would appear reasonable to expect, and
demand, that abortion providers: 1) provide pre-consent information about the types of psychological reactions which have been linked to a negative
abortion experience and the risk factors associated with these adverse reactions; 2) provide adequate pre-abortion screening using the criteria
outlined above to identify women who are at higher risk of negative post-abortion reactions; 3) provide individualized counseling to high risk patients
which would more fully explain why the patient is at higher risk along with more detailed information concerning possible post-abortion reactions;
and 4) assist women who have pre-identifying high risk factors in evaluating and choosing lower risk solutions to their social, economic, and health
needs.
Since these high risk factors have been well established for a considerable period of time, abortion providers who fail to utilize this information in
their screening and counseling procedures may incur greater liability for subsequent injuries when malpractice suits are brought on these grounds.
SOURCES:
1. Adler, et. al., "Psychological Responses After Abortion," Science, 248:41-44, (1990).
2. Ashton, "The Psychosocial Outcome of Induced Abortion", British Journal of Ob&Gyn., 87:1115-1122 (1980).
3. Babikian & Goldman, "A Study in Teen-Age Pregnancy," Am. J. Psychiatry, 755 (1971).
4. Belsey, et al., "Predictive Factors in Emotional Response to Abortion: King's Termination Study - IV," Soc. Sci. & Med.,11:71-82 (1977).
5. Blumberg, "The Psychological Sequelae of Abortion Performed for a Genetic Indication," Am. J. of Obstetrics and Gynecology122(7):799-808
(1975).
6. Bracken, "A causal model of psychosomatic reactions to vacuum aspiration abortion," Social Psychiatry, 13:135-145 (1978).
7. Bracken, et al., "Coping with pregnancy resolution among women in an urban population," Sociology, 9, 225-254 (1978).
8. Bracken, et. al., "The decision to abort and psychological sequelae" Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease, 158:154-162 (1974).
9. Campbell, N.B., et. al., "Abortion in adolescence," Adolescence 23:813-823 (1988).
10. Cohen & Roth, "Coping With Abortion," Journal of Human Stress 10:140-145 (1984).
11. Council on Scientific Affairs, American Medical Association, "Induced Termination of Pregnancy Before and After Roe v Wade: Trends in
Mortality and Morbidity of Women," JAMA, 268(22):3231-3239 (1992).
12. Dunlop, "Counseling of Patients Requesting an Abortion," The Practioner, 220:847-852 (1978).
13. Franz, et. al., "Differential Impact of Abortion on Adolescents and Adults," Adolescence, 27(105):161-172 (1992).
14. Friedman, C., et. al., "The Decision-Making Process and the Outcome of Therapeutic Abortion," Am. J. of Psychiatry, 131(12):1332-1337
(1974).
15. Furlong, "Pregnancy Termination for Genetic Indications: The Impact on Families," Social Work in Health Care 10(1):17 (1984).
16. Gath & Rose, "Psychological Problems & Gynacological Surgery" in Psychological Disorders in Obstetrics and Gynaecology(London:
Butterworths, 1985).
17. Hern, Abortion Practice, (Boulder, CO: Alpenglo Graphics, Inc., 1990).
18. Landy, "Abortion Counseling - A New Component of Medical Care," Clinics in Obs/Gyn, 13(1):33-41 (1986).
19. Lask, "Short-term Psychiatric Sequelae to Therapeutic Termination of Pregnancy," Br J Psychiatry, 126: 173-177 (1975).
20. Lazarus, "Psychiatric Sequelae of Legalized Elective First Trimester Abortion", Journal of Psychosomatic Ob&Gyn 4:141-150 (1985).
21. Lemkau, "Emotional Sequelae of Abortion," Psychology of Women Quarterly, 12:461-472 (1988).
22. Lloyd, "Sequelae and Support After Termination of Pregnancy for Fetal Malformation," British Medical Journal, 290:907-909 (1985).
23. Major & Cozzarelli, "Psychosocial Predictors of Adjustment to Abortion," Journal of Social Issues, 48(3):121-142 (1992).
24. Major, et. al., "Attributions, expectations and coping with abortion," Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 48:585-599 (1985).
25. Makhorn, "Sexual Assault & Pregnancy," New Perspectives on Human Abortion, Mall & Watts, eds., (Washington, D.C.: University
Publications of America, 1981).
26. Martin, "Psychological Problems of Abortion for Unwed Teenage Girls," Genetic Psychology Monographs 88:23-110 (1973).
27. Miller, "An Empirical Study of the Psychological Antecedents and Consequences of Induced Abortion," Journal of Social Issues, 48(3):67-93
(1992).
28. Moseley, et. al., "Psychological Factors That Predict Reaction to Abortion," J. of Clinical Psychology, 37:276-279 (1981).
29. Mueller & Major, "Self-blame, self-efficacy and adjustment to abortion," Journal of Personality and Social Psychology57:1059-1068
(1989).
30. Osofsky & Osofsky, "The psychological reaction of patients to legalized abortion," American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 42:48-60 (1972).
31. Osofsky, et. al., "Psychological effects of abortion: With emphasis upon the immediate reactions and followup," in H. J. Osofsky & J.D.
Osofsky, eds., The Abortion Experience (Hagerstown, MD: Harper & Row, 1973), 189-205.
32. Rosenfeld, "Emotional Responses to Therapeutic Abortion," American Family Physician, 45(1):137-140, (1992).
33. Rue & Speckhard, "Informed Consent & Abortion: Issues in Medicine & Counseling," Medicine & Mind 7:75-95 (1992).
34. Shusterman, "Predicting the psychological consequences of abortion," Social Science and Medicine, 13A:683-689 (1979).
35. Speckhard & Rue, "Postabortion Syndrome: An Emerging Public Health Concern," Journal of Social Issues, 48(3):95-119 (1992).
36. Vaughan, Canonical Variates of Post Abortion Syndrome(Portsmouth, NH: Institute for Pregnancy Loss, 1990).
37. Wallerstein, "Psychological Sequelae of Therapuetic Abortion in Young Unmarried Women," Archives of General Psychiatry 27:828-832
(1972).
38. Zakus, "Adolescent Abortion Option," Social Work in Health Care, 12(4):87 (1987).
39. Zimmerman, "Psychosocial and Emotional Consequences of Elective Abortion: A Literature Review", in Paul Sachdev, ed., Abortion: Readings
and Research (Toronto:Butterworth, 1981).
40. Zimmerman, Passage Through Abortion (New York: Praeger Publishers, 1977).
41. See also: Adler, David, Major, Roth, Russo, & Wyatt, "Psychological Factors in Abortion: A Review" American Psychologist
47(10):1194-1204 (1992).
Originally published in The Post-Abortion Review 1(3),Fall 1993. Revised version published in Making Abortion Rare. Copyright 1993 Elliot
Institute
Related Articles: CLOSING THE NET - Beyond Informed Consent || Limitations on Post-Abortion Research: Why We Know So Little || What
Dr. Koop Could Have Reported
Anonymous
Friends/Relatives Hurt By Abortion
Fri Nov 19 11:53:50 1999
I don't want to put anyone on the spot here, but I've seen several mentions now of people having a hard time with a friend/relative's abortion. Please
remember that this is your board too and you can talk about your grief if you wish.
Mary
Hope you'll see this ... .
Fri Nov 19 09:55:25 1999
Dear Tasha;
I'm sorry to hear that you have been alienated. For my part, I don't -- and won't pretend to -- know you better than you know yourself. I certainly
don't say that you are "In Denial", or whatever the popular psychobabble jargon is now. If you want to talk about your abortion (and why not, since an
abortion is a significant event for lots of women), you might want to visit
http://www.afterabortion.com
The site focuses largely on women who are experiencing post abortion stress. Even if this is not true for you, you might find some good stuff anyway.
The woman who oversees the site is prochoice (as am I -- didja guess?), so you might find encounter less rhetoric and assumptions there.
Mary
Anonymous
and if you'll notice...
Fri Nov 19 11:17:46 1999
That website you referred her to refutes the notion that the denial stage is just "psychobabble jargon". On the FAQ page:
1.Stage 1 - denial, numbness, apathy
This stage can start before the abortion has even taken place! Many women, after coming to
the extrememly difficult choice to terminate a pregnancy, may enter Stage 1. Women have
reported feeling a sense of 'disassociation' with the abortion plans, things like 'calling the clinic',
or making other arrangements seem to have been done 'in a fog', like it was 'someone else'
doing it. One woman reported that she told herself over and over again that she was NOT
having an abortion, she was just having a 'procedure' done, and thought this way the whole
time. She had a difficult time on the procedure table, but once it was over, went right back to
the chant in her head "I did not have an abortion, I did not have an abortion." She never told
anyone in her life that she had an abortion, she lied about it to doctors on medical histories,
and basically 'forced' her mind to accept the thought that she had not had an abortion. This
worked for 11 years for her, until something broke her wall of denial down, and she ended up
having a nervous breakdown, and needing care at an inpatient facility, to deal with the
immense amount of feelings that had been 'stuffed' for so long.
Denial and numbness can go on for weeks or even years. Women can be having problems in
their lives, and having problems with their health, but discount their abortion as the cause.
Women can experience a wide range of emotional and physical problems after abortion such
as: sexual dysfunction, eating disorders, alcohol abuse, drug (prescription and street) abuse,
depression, relationship problems, low self esteem.
Mary
Yes, and if YOU'LL notice ... .
Fri Nov 19 12:09:05 1999
Dear Anonymous;
The point is that even a legitimate observation about suppression of feelings in *some* women DOES become psychobabble IF it is used to make
assumptions about *all* women or about any woman you don't really know.
It is unfair and dishonest to ascend to the lordly heights of Prolife Knowitallism to hand down diagnoses of Denial to any woman who "fails" to express
the demanded amount of regret about her abortion. It's the old Maoist trick of saying that anyone who contradicts the Chairman is just suffering from a
False Consciousness; if We could only work on her a head a bit, she would soon find that deep down, she *really* agrees with us. That is what I
reject.
Mary
Anonymous
That goes both ways...
Fri Nov 19 12:17:53 1999
It's just as much "Pro-choice Knowitallism" to say that NOBODY feels bad about aborting unless they're already mentally unstable (Jilly, the author of
the site you linked to, has said that some of her most vicious hate mail comes from pro-choicers of that mindset). This is a board for post-abortion
regrets, and many post-abortion women first went through a stage of denial, so I don't think it should be considered "psychobabble" jsut because
someone points out that denial can occur and does occur for many people.
Mary
Political *issues* can cut both ways. Tasha is a person.
Fri Nov 19 12:33:38 1999
Dear Anonymous;
Can the accusations go both ways? Yes, except that the whole point of recent Tasha-related interchanges on this board has been (allegedly) to listen to
and support one individual woman. She was alienated by people who acted as though they wrote the book on her and her psyche -- when in fact they
knew very little about her at all.
I'm sorry that Jilly has had hate mail from choicers. But the problem right here & now is this board's alienation of Tasha, something that would be tough
to attribute to the "keep yer laws off my body" crowd.
Mary
Tasha
I can't believe it..
Fri Nov 19 01:39:25 1999
I can't believe how many responses I have gotten that have in return, gotten responses. Listen people. I didn't post my story to have other judge me due
to their own personal beliefs or to say that I was right in my decision (though I really believe that I was) nor to start an arguement or a debate. I simply
wanted to inform others what I've had happen to me. The only people that I have seen not argure nor criticize (that I have noticed, though I haven't
read all the posts) are MommyAllTheTime and Pat Goltz. These people were kind and compassionate about the whole situation. They offered to listen
to more of what I had to say and offered me more information on the subject. I just thought I would state what I wanted to come from all this. I hope
you all sort out your own personal problems before you try to start in on mine. Thanks to those who were seriously concerned and offered advice and
talked about the situation. To those of you who argued and criticized..I hope you solve your own problems and then come back to talk to me again.
Thank you to all of you. And of course (as always) feel free to respond.
debbby88
Re: I can't believe it..
Fri Nov 19 03:53:54 1999
I never thought I argued or criticized, if I did then I am sorry. I understand what you are saying and it's too bad the board moderator isnt around
much...
Tasha
Re: I can't believe it..
Fri Nov 19 09:20:48 1999
Debby you misunderstood me. What I was saying is that you are one of those who didn't. And I was thanking you for that.
debbby88
Re: I can't believe it..
Fri Nov 19 12:38:32 1999
Yeah I know, I was reading down the posts and I came across this one first and responded, then I came across the other one and responded. I know
you don't think I was being mean and I am glad :)
Anonymous
another addition
Fri Nov 19 02:08:19 1999
This is to the people below who might be curious on how I got pregnant. First of all, I did NOT have sex for the simple reason of having "a few
orgasms", nor did I do it because of the size of my self-esteem. I did it because my boyfriend and I are "in love". I put that in parenthesis for the simple
fact that many would argue that I am "too young to know what love is". My boyfriend and I have been together for a very long time. This (as in the sex)
wasn't a decision that I just jumped into. I waited for the time that I thought was appropriate. It is something that I wanted, as did he. We DID you birth
control. Which method you may be asking. Well we used a condom. For those of you who are like "well condoms don't protect against STDS" or
whatever, both my boyfriend and I were virgins. So I wasn't worried about that. I have never once thought that it couldn't or wouldn't happen to me. I
knew all the possiblities and consequences that went along with it. The reason I got pregnant though we used a condom. It had a hole in it. It wasn't due
to personal faulty use or anything of the sort. I know I am kind of jumping from one thing to another in this post, but this is because I am just typing as I
think and not organizing things first. So now, for my self-esteem and what it has to do with anything. I have very high self-esteem. I believe myself to be
a beautiful young woman with a lot ahead of her. I don't need a man, or any other person or thing for that matter, to give me self-esteem or make me
happy. I love myself for who I am and I am very proud of what I am right now. Another topic that came up was me previously talking about how I love
children and that being my way to coupe. Well, this is not the case. I have always loved children. As long as I can remember, I have wanted to be a
teacher for kids in primary schools. As a child I kept dolls (as most girls do), but as many don't, I still have mine and treasure them and the memories I
have from them. Me loving children has absolutely nothing to do with my "healing process". Next, I understand anything to anybody here has to say.
Just because I may be young, it doesn't mean that I am ignorant.
For those of you who think differently, well good for you. I could care less. All I know is that I am happy with how my life is at this moment, and YES
the abortion did affect me, but NO it did not sadden me nor did it upset me. I am a human being and I do (as someone has said before in a post on
here) see my baby in every other child's face and love the child though it never had the chance to be born. BUT I do not regret having the abortion, and
I wont unless I cannot have children. That is all.
Anonymous
actually
Fri Nov 19 07:42:45 1999
Latex condoms are in fact supposed to protect from STDs. You might be thinking of birth control pills, since those don't provide any STD protection.
For future information, you really should use two forms of protection every time you have sex to limit the risk of failures. This website provides an
analysis of the risk and benefits of various methods.
I just finished reading a book called, if I recall correctly, "Sex - what you don't know can kill you." It was written by an MD.
I was going to quote from it, but I can't find my copy. When I do, I will come back and quote. But what he said about AIDS in particular is that condoms do NOT protect from AIDS. This is because of failure, and because the AIDS virus is considerably smaller in size than the natural spaces in the condom, even if it is manufactured properly. In fact, the AIDS virus is considerably smaller than a sperm! Given his figures, if I recall correctly, is that one out of every 19 people who have sex with condom protection with an infected person will become infected PER ENCOUNTER. This means that any person who has sex regularly with an infected person is GOING to be exposed, sooner or later.
I CANNOT stand idly by and see this deadly misconception that condoms protect from sexually transmitted disease. They don't.
Here is a factor to consider: we know that condoms have a failure rate for pregnancy somewhere around 20% or so. I don't remember the exact figure. When you realize that some women are sterile for one reason or another, and that a fertile woman is only fertile about 1/7 of the time, this means that enough condoms actually fail that there is a considerably larger risk of STD than there is of pregnancy. Simple logic should tell us that the statement that condoms are adequate protection for STD is a lie.
The book to which I refer is available from Amazon.com. That's where I got my copy, just recently.
Pat
MommyAllTheTime/Unplanned Pregnancy
latex condoms
Fri Nov 19 16:15:50 1999
Condoms only offer as much protection from AIDS or other STD's as they do from pregnancy. Which is approximately 75%. Condoms can tear just a
fraction (enough to permit the STD to transfer) or can tear a large amount. In this case, your protection is no longer. Just thought I'd make that point.
Peace.
Tasha
an addition
Fri Nov 19 01:42:58 1999
I would like to add on to my previous post. Mary and Debby too have been very kind and so have a few others. Thank you much, I appreciate the
support and kindness.
Thanks, Tasha..anytime...n/t debbby88, Fri Nov 19 03:55
You're welcome, Tasha! I'm glad to do it! (n/m) Mary, Fri Nov 19 01:45
LG
Whut?
Fri Nov 19 01:13:04 1999
I thought you said that yer abortion didn't have anything to do with death. It seems now that you think it does. That's progress in my opinion. I didn't
realize that the baby had birth defects. I guess if that's so, and your health is in danger then maybe you did the right thing. The little voice you refer to is
called a conscience. I think it's necessary for an adult to have one to function independently in this society. I doubt, though that you have no conscience
at all. You may not cry when your friends die, but I would be surprised if you would kill someone. I notice that you were emotionally detached though,
didn't I?
You did say the baby was found to have birth defects, didn't you?
LG
Tasha
Not found, but..
Fri Nov 19 01:30:20 1999
not found to have them, but that would it was a major possibility. And it could have put me and the baby in a harmful position. As for what the "little
voice" is really called, I know that it's conscience. Thanks though :). It's not that I am not affected by friends dying or things of the sort, it's that I'm not
as affected as most people usually are. I do have a conscience, and yes it would prevent me from killing another person, but it isn't the type that makes
you feel bad if you emotionally hurt somebody or if someone you know gets hurt, or things like that. Anything else you'd like me to discuss? Let me
know!
LG
Tasha, Not Tasha
Fri Nov 19 02:45:49 1999
"I do have a conscience....but it isn't the type that makes you feel bad if you emotionally hurt sombody or if someone you know gets hurt..."
I'd like to point out that in my first note in response to your story that I was reacting to this quirk in your conscience. The above is not true for most
people. This emotional coolness got a rise out of me. There is a seperate issue here, seperate from your abortion. I can't quite get a grip on what it is.
Something is below the surface of your postings. It's like trying to see through the trees from a moving car. I can see that something is there, but I can't
see what it is. What is it?
LG
Tasha
Re: Tasha, Not Tasha
Fri Nov 19 09:16:46 1999
It's all connected in some small one. Once you figure it out, let me know. Until then, just stop the criticism
Tasha
Re: Tasha, Not Tasha
Fri Nov 19 09:19:23 1999
one=way. Sorry bout the typo
Prolifeman
I dont think you are a bad person...
Thu Nov 18 10:36:34 1999
I just dont agree with bf. I dont doubt all of what you say. What I DO doubt is the behavior of too many men today to agree to this. His responsibility is
(was) to protect that child at any price. None of this "well I dont feel ready now" stuff was tolerated until recently. As recently as the 50s, a guy
screwed up just ONCE and his a$$ was grass. He had to pay. The job of men is to ensure a term pregnancy, not to pay for an abortion or facilitate
one. Current unilateral laws have encouraged men to agree (often without choice) to the IDEA, the CONCEPT of abortion being "a womans right" so
their mindset becomes one which ceases to be about thinking about what THEY are going to do constructively, and to being about "what is SHE going
to do" and endorsing quick fixes like abortion. They areoverly accomodating when the girl panics which is normal for ALL WOMEN, and then an
abortion which could have been avoided occurs. The panic stage, as in the article by the admin of this board on her homepage, DOESNT LAST. What
does is the permanant loss of a child. To several parties. One of which loses their life. No circumstance of hardship is enough to justify that, but each
year women convince themselves they dont have enough money, the guy isnt into it, etc., into believing abortion is their only option. THAT ALONE
should tell one that abortion is a pressure "option" and and NOT a true choice. If it were, so many women wouldnt talk about their abortions as being
"the only thing we could do" and so forth. They would never say "no woman wants an abortion" etc. Its a self deceptive trick to prevent mental stress,
but even that fails usually when the denial stage ends...
PLM
Tasha
Oh I didn't realize..
Thu Nov 18 19:16:13 1999
that you were talking about my boyfriend. See, it wasn't his choice. I decided (without his help or anyother persons help) that I was to have the
abortion. Though we did discuss it, it wasn't up to him. It was me that would have to life with either the regret or the feelings or anything else that would
occur afterwards. I don't let any man or anyother person make a decision for me. I am my own persons and can take care of myself. Thanks for
clearing things up for me.
Prolifeman
Sorry, this is very disturbing coming from any woman...
Fri Nov 19 15:43:42 1999
YOU arent the only one who has to live with the consequences of "your decision". Abortion affects the man involved massively, and not for the better.
Ask yourself if you would like someone deciding for YOU about your child without your approval. Then ask how many men involved must feel about
that. Did you get pregnant by yourself? Did you make the other half of that baby? Are only women responsible for 18 years of child support? I realize
you are angry, but this attitide is WHY so many men are apathetic and when women term they arent there at least willingly. Treat others as you wish to
be treated. Your situation proves why mandetory consent from the father in all abortions should be law everywhere. That will reduce superfluous
abortions. Superfluous abortions =all pregnancies which are supported by the father. If he is willing to shoulder the burdons, take custody, etc., it
makes no sense to kill a child that ISNT not wanted by at least one parent, even prochoice persons want to see abortions reduced...
PLM
PLM, you're starting to preach again... (n/m)
anonymous
Re: To let you know..
Wed Nov 17 20:39:12 1999
>>>>I have never once cried when I have lost a friend or relative to death, nor have I felt sorrow or guilt, or any of those emotions that go along with
death. I don't have an inner voice that tells me things are wrong, or that tells me thatI'm sad or anything like that.<<<<
You say this like you think it's a good and normal thing?!?! Still haven't figured out why you're here, since you claim not to be feeling badly about this.
Are you just trying to convince yourself what you did was OK?
MommyAllTheTime/Byzantine Peace Offering
it's possible
Fri Nov 19 15:21:34 1999
First of all the fact that she doesn't hardly ever cry has nothing to do with if she is a bad person or has something wrong with her. There are some nieces
of mine who are this way and it is not because they are uncaring people or have been through any emotional hell in the past. I actually think it may be
genetic. LOL Anyway, just thought I'd make that little point. :)
Some people, and I'm not directing this to Tasha, because she may or may not be one of those people, also experience a dulling of their emotions from having an abortion. Sometimes they don't realize it hasn't always been that way...
Pat
Tasha
Not a good thing..
Thu Nov 18 01:03:31 1999
Or a normal thing. I've actually been told that it's morbid, but I've adjusted to the fact. I didn't mean for that comment to come across sounding like
that, because that is in no way what I meant. I do have sorrow and all those other emotions just not at the right times. It's difficult to explain. And the
reason I am here? That would be because this page is for people who have experienced it or are suffering from it. I just wanted to share my own
personal thoughts and feelings with others and get their feed back. I'm not trying to justify what I did as "being OK". I'm simply expressing myself.
MommyAllTheTime/Byzantine Peace Offering
absolutely welcome here
Fri Nov 19 15:40:14 1999
You are soooooo absolutely welcome here. Do not let anyone make you feel otherwise. This board is not only for those in crisis pregnancy but for
those who have had an abortion.
In my opinion there are varying degrees of guilt we carry from abortion; mainly they depend on what our reasons were for aborting. You should not feel
the same guilt as someone aborting as birth control, etc. Some posters are right about guilt coming later. I can attest firsthand to that. Our minds protect
us from the shock/pain of feeling responsible for what happened to that fetus. So it protects us from the "pain", just as those taken hostage will often
temporarily have amnesia of the events that took place.
I believe if you are open to this "conscience", which I personally believe is a form of the Holy Spirit, then you will come upon your responsibility when
it's right. But you can't be telling yourself any white lies in the mean time, like it was just a blob of cells, or I HAD to have the abortion in case there
were birth defects. Again, not saying these things didn't play a part in the intellectual part of your decision, just saying don't lie to yourself and say it
absolutely was the most "right" thing to do. See what I'm saying? Hope I'm making sense. Didn't mean to get religious on you with the "Holy Spirit"
comment, but I really do believe that It's intertwined with our conscience.
I think for me, the worst guilt came from denying that feeling I had. But everybody is different. I also don't want you to think that this "guilt" you will face
will be the kind of guilt that eats you up from the inside out. Guilt can be of varying degrees for each person who has an abortion, again, mostly because
of circumstances. And any guilt that makes you so angry with yourself that you suicidal or turn away from the thought of God is not beneficial in any
way. In that case, I believe it would be healthy to deny that type of guilt. Because it won't bring you any healing or anything positive.
Hope this post doesn't come across as telling you what to feel and what to do. Please, know that there are some of us who don't judge you and who
truly know where you're coming from and where you're at, k? I don't look down on you at all. In fact, I have nothing but compassion for you cause I
know what it's like.
(Just to let you know I put a couple of new great links on my page that might be helpful to you.)
Peace.
Mary
Welcome, but to what?
Fri Nov 19 16:28:53 1999
Dear MommyAlltheTime;
I've gotta take issue with what you just said to Tasha.
>"But you can't be telling yourself any white lies in the meantime, like it was just a blob of cells ... ."
Look at a picture of an embryo in the first weeks of gestation. If it's not a blob of cells, it'll do until the real thing comes along.
>"Hope this post doesn't come across as telling you what to feel or what to do."
That's just what it comes across as to me. You spent several paragraphs describing what kind of guilt Tasha ought to feel as well as predicting what her
feelings will be in the future.
>"Just don't lie to yourself and say it absolutely was the most 'right' thing to do."
Say it as sweetly as you want: this is simply a demand that she agree with you, or be a liar if she doesn't.
>". ... white lies, like ... I HAD to have the abortion in case there were birth defects."
Here again, you demand that she agree with YOUR idea of what is best. If she doesn't, then she has told herself a "lie".
This is support?
Mary
debbby88
Re: Not a good thing..
Thu Nov 18 12:13:22 1999
Share all you want. Most of us are sincere. Just ignore the people who are hateful. This board turns into a debate board too often, but we're still here
for you :)
Tasha
Thanks
Thu Nov 18 21:29:14 1999
I don't pay much attention to them anyway :) but thanks for the friendly words!
Anonymous
Keep in mind
Fri Nov 19 07:53:44 1999
I've spent quite a bit of time talking to and observing post-abortion women, and I've seen that for some people emotional numbness and denial is an
early defense mechanism. It doesn't mean they're "evil" or heartless. It's just a way to protect themselves until they're ready to come to terms with their
feelings. Some of the people who make the most seemingly callous comments about their abortions are actually the ones hurting the most deep down.
This article talks about some of the emotions that women deal with when they're aborting (see especially the section called "The Necessity of Denial").
Mary
Looking Glass, Silly Ass!
Thu Nov 18 09:23:26 1999
Dear Looking Glass;
Because Tasha has not repudiated her decision to have an abortion, you liken her to mass murderer and cult leader Charles Manson and even to Nazi
doctor Josef Mengele. Even leaving aside the sheer insanity of these comparisons, the rules of this board say that insults and personal attacks are not
allowed. Comparing people with Charles Manson and Josef Mengele is (duh!) *insulting*. As is calling the morons who do such things "Silly Asses," as
I did in the title of my post. But YOU deserve it.
I wish Tasha the best of luck in everything and a happy future. Looking Glass, I wish that you would learn some sense, preferrably via bitter experience.
Mary
Mary
To the "thinker":
Thu Nov 18 23:19:51 1999
Dear Looking Glass;
Boy, Pat's gonna be thrilled when she reads that you aren't "even a pro-lifer at all." And I just *knew* that there would be a post that exploited the
rhyme of "Mary" and "scary"!
My criticisms of your absurd, bombastic post to Tasha stand. And that's all I'll say on that. This thread is supposed to consist of support for Tasha. I'll
do nothing further to help you become the main focus of the conversation.
Mary
LG
Whip me, Beat me, Dismiss me
Thu Nov 18 23:51:51 1999
Why would anyone support nastiness? Why doen't anyone support the victim?
MommyAllTheTime/Unplanned Pregnancy
judging
Fri Nov 19 15:44:45 1999
Everybody (this is directed at all posters) who thinks this board is here to provide a seat of judgement better think again.
Also, this is not a debate board. It is to provide SUPPORT for those in a crisis pregnancy or for those who have had abortions.
Can we all read the message at the top of the page when you enter, please? Thanks. Peace.
Mary
Well, I haven't tried that ... .
Fri Nov 19 00:24:06 1999
Dear Looking Glass;
"Whip me, beat me, dismiss me."
Hm. I'm not sure that's my scene. But if you insist, I'll see what I can do.
Always eager to please,
Mary
LG
Cool
Fri Nov 19 01:33:24 1999
Mary you seem pretty cool eventhough we don't agree on the topic at hand. Maybe I had a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to Tasha's prediciment. I was
reacting to her shocking mater-of-factness and to her lack of introspection. If you read yesterday's conversation you'll see that she herself agrees with
my assesment of her emotional state in regards to her situation.
In all fairness, have to admit that I recently found out that my sister had 2 abortions. My parents have no grandchildren and this is the reason why. I'm
sure they would be horrified to know this. It would only do damage to create a war by bring this up with my sister or our parents. Maybe I'm venting
some, but having mixed motives doesn't make me wrong.
LG
LG,
Fascinating!
I read your message AFTER I wrote the one above about hate speech. So you fit into the second category. You are one of those who didn't get involved in abortion, but was hurt by someone close to you having abortions.
I knew you were venting; I just didn't know why.
Please remember in the future that hate speech is murder. It is a very, very serious matter. If you need to vent, do it in a safe place, with people you are not directing your rage at. 'K?
Pat
Tasha
It seems to me
Fri Nov 19 01:49:59 1999
LG, it seems to me that you are mixing personal problems and family issues with my standing. I don't think my life and what has happened to me should
be judged the way you have judged it due to the fact that you have recently learned your sister has had 2 abortions. Though I am greatly sorry that you
had to be put through the emotional stress that you did because of this family problem, I don't think that you should take them out on me.
LG
Dismissed
Fri Nov 19 02:15:02 1999
Toanya:
If no family problems had happened, I would be of the same opinion still. Its interesting the how anyone who disagrees with something like this is
suddenly "judgemental". Your assertion is judgemental! How can anyone have a meaningful conversation with someone who aflicted with judgement?
Reading your note makes me feel the same way I do when I disagree with some fundamentalists who trump every exchange with "the bible says..".
I'm not taking anything out on you. I was just shocked by your story and by the way you told it. You said yourself that you pretty much agree with my
summary of the situation in yesterday's conversation. To me your story indicated that you were emotionally detached about your situation and that you
had no inkling that maybe there was something wrong with what you did. I think that patting you on the back over this is a goofy thing to do. This is a
time for introspection, for reassesment, for a realigning of your life. You should make sure this doesn't happen again.
My comments were a wake up call - you should thank me, not dismiss me with the 'J word'.
Tasha
Okay..
Fri Nov 19 02:28:02 1999
I never once said that I wasn't being judgemental. I know that I was. I always am. I am not one to deny that. I agree with your saying before that
everyone is judgemental and that it is our way of life. There is one difference in the way that I am judgemental, compared to the way that you are. I
have not once compared you to another person (very cruel people at that) and I have not said that you torture small animals. This in my opinion is just
SICK. Think what you want, but don't put disgusting comments up if you don't expect me to make a snide comment in return.
LG
Snide
Fri Nov 19 03:06:51 1999
Let's get things in perspective here: I never did anything I just said stuff. You're the one who DID questionable things.
Have you read all the postings on this topic? I already explaned the difference between concrete and abstract thinking. I am very abstract. What I said
was not cruel, it was raising the alarm over your emotional detachment. You have pointed out to us several times now that something is amiss. My point
was that you have no introspection over what you have done and that you see nothing wrong with it. I assert once again that these traits are shared by
the aforementioned cult leader and doctor. As for the 'small animal' comment, I didn't say that you tortured them, I said that 'you probably did while no
one was looking.' Meaning: Who knows what you're capable of if you see no problem with what you did and were not emotionally affected by it? I
think that's a valid question. I may have pissed you off, but at least now you're thinking. If that makes you less likely to allow this situation to happen
again, then I think I have done more for you than all the damp dish rags who pat you on the back and say "there, there, now"
LG
Thinker? Questionable...
LG,
Don't exaggerate. It ill becomes a "thinker". Hate speech is hate speech. The mere fact that some of us refuse to use hate speech does NOT mean we are damp dish rags. We are just not going to engage in verbal murder, and we will try to use discernment in what we say.
Pat
MommyAllTheTime/Unplanned Pregnancy
agree
Fri Nov 19 16:07:19 1999
I agree with some of your views. But you say you are not being judgemental, while saying very IMO judgemental comments to her. If you do not agree,
suffice it to say, we do not have the same definition of judgemental. I will mention one comment here: Who knows what you're capable of, if you
capable of an abortion? Who knows what you are capable of if you are capable of turning someone away from spiritual or emotional healing? Abortion
is not the only act lacking of morals existing in the world.
If you have never been pregnant from your boyfriend who is on medicine which can alter the sperm and then had an abortion, you really can't
understand what she was feeling at the time, right? Of course she's in denial. It's very recent and besides that, depending on the person's background
the denial level can be very different. Yes, she did something that is inherently wrong. But she did it under a particular emotional stress that you have
never been under. But when you are critical of her you are also doing something that is wrong.
But now hearing about your sister, it makes a lot more sense why you feel so upset about her seeming unconcerned about her abortion. In fact, even as
I am typing, I am realizing more how you are also in a place of pain, so it is affecting your words to others. So, I find myself telling you that if I have also
been judgemental of you (which I probably have), then please try to understand. I felt strongly that she needed defense, as your words were harsh.
Now, with my head down (and my tail between my legs), I will humbly end this post. Again, hope you can understand if it seems I've been jumping
down your throat, as I will definitely try to be more understanding myself. Peace.
This is a SUPPORT board!...n/t debbby88, Wed Nov 17 23:59
LG
Support
Thu Nov 18 22:48:03 1999
I support responsibility
I support accountability
I support common sence
I support honesty
I support logic
I support equity
I support patience
I support understanding
What do you support?
debbby88
Question...
Fri Nov 19 00:24:05 1999
Do you think someone would go to a board where they were wanting support and someone to listen to them if they were going to get responses such
as the one you gave her?
debbby88
Re: Support
Fri Nov 19 00:21:51 1999
I support the exact same things you listed, but I will NEVER support coming on a Support board and being cruel and judgemental to someone reaching
out for help, even if I don't agree with what they say.
LG
Excuse Me
Fri Nov 19 01:51:54 1999
NO you don't support exactly the same things I support. How can you describe what Tana did as 'comon sence', or as responsible conduct? I'm not
the one who is cruel, all I did was say stuff. Tama is the one who described an emotionless, consequence free removal of some problematic tissue in her
uterus. If you look at Yesterday's conversation on this topic you'll see that she admits to being emotionless, having no conscience, and she even implies
that she considers her abortion to be a death.
Focus, debbie88! I'm mainly reacting to Tyana's calousness in this situation. The other issue is that I disagree with her decision. How could anyone
support such a happening? It's a disaster - this calls for self examination and questioning about what went wrong - not a blind agreement with what ever
went down. We're all judgemental, aren't we? I think it's a paradox that your 'judgemental statement' is judgemental. You wouldn't live with just any old
bum. You wouldn't buy anything a telimarketer tells you you should buy. You wouldn't run a stop sign in front of a cop car. We all make judgements
daily. It's how we navigate our way through life.
LG
LG
Scary Mary!
Thu Nov 18 23:01:51 1999
My you have such a strong reaction! I take your strenuous efforts to attack me as evidence that I've made you think.
My mission is accomplished.
Are you one of those 'concrete thinkers'? You don't seem to be able to understand metaphore or abstraction. As a for instance: You may not be aware
of it, but the phrase "One shouldn't throw stones if one lives in a glass house." doesn't actually refer to the dangers of damaging your own property. Do
you know what it means?
LG
LG
Wrong
Thu Nov 18 23:47:03 1999
You spout so much verbage. What's all the stuff about self esteem? You make people operate at the level of reptiles whose nural lobe is their 'self
esteem'. I pointed out that Tanya took no responsibility, saw no wrong in what she did, and that there were no consequences. My opinion is that this is
not so. Maybe she should have gotten the abortion, at least now there is less of her ilk in this world. I just think that she should not have bragged about
it in this forum in a selfish attempt to connect with others who are willing to support her in this nonsence.
LG
Tanya
Thu Nov 18 23:25:53 1999
Allow me to make some points about what you said:
You have no idea who Tanya is or what happened.
You misunderstood what I said: I didn't say she was a twisted psychopath, I said that she exhibited a cold emotional detachment from her decision, and
that she rationalized away the sense that there was anything wrong with what she did.
You admit that her abortion was wrong in your own opinion.
The 'sin talk'.
I never said anything about God. I'm rational not a fanatic.
No one makes anyone else have sex. To do so is illegal. You don't have to have sex to survive. How could Tanya's decisions be described as anything
but irresponsible? Teenagers are irresponsible which is why they shouldn't have children. Children are ultimatly the victims of all the adults' crummy
decisions and other nonsence. Shouldn't we all make our best effort to spare them the suffering brought by all of our follies?
LS
No, it's "Tasha". (n/m) Mary, Fri Nov 19 00:28
LG
Get It?
Fri Nov 19 01:57:51 1999
I have been purposly changing your name around to make a point. The point is that it doen't matter what your name is - I don't know you. Since this is
the case, my comments are not personal but intellectual. Let's not loose sight of the fact that you offered up your story on your own volition.
LG
" I have been purposly changing your name around to make a point. The point is that it doen't matter what your name is - I don't know you. Since this is
the case, my comments are not personal but intellectual. Let's not loose sight of the fact that you offered up your story on your own volition."
That may be, but deliberately twisting her name is also dehumanizing. It's akin to the dehumanization that results in accepting abortion. 'Nuff said?
Pat
your welcome -- glad you enjoyed it (n/t) MommyAllTheTime/Unplanned Pregnancy, Wed Nov 17 18:53
I tried too,have been unable to get the website(no message May, Wed Nov 17 09:34
Anonymous
Yes BOTH do wrong, finally somebody admits it!
Thu Nov 18 10:47:27 1999
I dont claim women are worse than men. I just say they arent BETTER. Both make errors. How one DEALS with errors is the point. Which is why I
oppose abortion being legal. We cant teach either gender responsibility by this. As for women abusing men and men abusing women, my endless point
is *not* that women are all a bunch of mean spirited goons, but that the LAW ALLOWS them to legally abuse men in abortion and that must go. Think
of it like this:
Suppose paternity suit law changed. Women COULDNT *FORCE* DNA tests. Several men would go quietly and not deny the baby, and would
also agree to tests. Because MOST men in fact, WOULDNT (despite what some think) run out or refuse fatherhood just like that. Men like babies
too. But biology makes maternity obvious, and paternity needs tests in some cases. In theory, if women didnt have any recourse to FORCE a DNA
test, ANY GIVEN MAN that got her pregnant could deny it, and you couldnt establish paternity and child support due to law and biology working in
destructive tandem. Men would all be scott free and could get any number of women pregnant, and not ever pay a dime for any of them if he didnt
WANT TO. Certainly, we cant have that. Its not unreasonable for women to refuse this legal structure, and it DOESNT mean they are accusing ALL
MEN of trying to abuse it. But since any given father could pull this, its silly to leave a loophole open like that dont you agree?
Same in abortion. The woman is the gestator. She already has alot of power. Roe intensified that so any woman can EASILY and LEGALLY double
cross the guy in any major city even if hes responsible and didnt just sleep around, and even cleared an "ok" first from her to reproduce. So, women are
in total control of MENS reproduction. Thats insane. Its too unbalancing for ONE SEX to have THAT MUCH POWER unchecked on "trust".
Women of course have abused this many times, just as many men would if we changed the laws and expectations on them in paternity suit logic. See
my point?
PLM
PLM, you're debating again (n/m)
May
Re: Yes BOTH do wrong, finally somebody admits it!
Thu Nov 18 10:54:55 1999
I think I see your point. You want both parties to have to consent to the abortion, since the baby is one half of each mother and father, so power is
equally distributed not one sided.I'm not sure if I agree or not, not because I have any arguments to offer, just because I have decided I can no longer
hold an opinion as to the legality of abortion. But I do have a strong opinion on this, something is very wrong, the family structure in this country is very
messed up, there is too much outside of marriage sex and too many fatherless children, and no good can come of this, that I do know, and somehow
this needs to be fixed.
Anonymous
And the reason men are so apathetic is...
Thu Nov 18 17:45:58 1999
...They have no rights to even have child support forced on themselves AFTER conception. Theres no denying the connection. Abortion laws are NOT
only unfair, they are pyschologically impossible for men to process and retain their sighted goals because the linear sequence is broken, along with the
spell. What is the sense of becoming emotionally attached to a fetus which you have no say over? Even to keep? Not even mentioning abortion
termination? We live in a fatherless society because society doesnt respect fathers regardless of what they do. Pro-choice women harp on men running,
and yet the answer is right in front of them. During as recently as ww2, a few fatherless kids was considered a tragedy, and no they are considered
expendable due to their biological weakness, and not just in abortion. Men wont respect sticking around when they are told should the vaunted
pregnancy happen, they got no votes in *ANY* direction. Over an over, I argue with women who constantly ARGUE AGAINST the very men they
say they want-men that dont run and WANT to pay child support up the rear end! They trouble is, in abortion for example, the same mixed messages
are sent to men, we treat them as irrelevant and rightless for 9 months on end, and then expect them to be bursting with enthusiam once the cord is cut.
Its simply psychologically impossible, because a proper father committed will bond long before birth. You cant tell men (like so many women keep
trying to do to preserve abortion rights unilaterally) that its "your body" and expect them to be class A father material when they dont even care due to
such conditioning over time whether the woman even kills it or not. Its simply impossible. It doesnt work, it never will work, because men dont work
that way any more than women in the end. If you were told you had no say, even to term it, that the man only in each pregnancy had ANY SAY for 9
months in a row, would you WANT TO BE A MOTHER?
Men dont WANT to be fathers anymore. And who can blame them. Many women dont get that the only way to reverse to reverse the apathetic trend
is to stop playing games with pregnancies and allow fathers rights to retain children when they are not psychos and arent runners. But several women
dont get it. The contract between the sexes WAS that if a man got a girl pregnant, he HAD to marry her. Now, thanks to abortion, men feel no
obligation because the woman can abort and he has nothing to say about it, even by forcing laws. So why should men care? Why should they honor
birthing decisions? So when women decide NOT to abort, they find no fathers there to pay. A large part of the reason for abortion WAS to balance
out the modest number of "runners" and the only effect was to multiply that number exponentially! Now, since women often choose to birth, they find
not just like 10% of the time do the men run, which a social system was so strong he often could be forced to pay and marry if he got cold feet, into a
society where men feel JUSTIFIED in running using illegal "c4m":
C4M
...hoping she wont sue, and a 39+% clip rate of fatherlessness and most experts predict 50%+ soon. The large blame is ABORTION and the war it
started between genders, and its use by irresponsible men second hand, as noted by certain prolife feminists. General society and even WOMEN
(especially) feel almost sheepish about insisting post birth fathers pay, not to mention prenatal costs, because deep down they know the law and clinics
allow women to choose but not men, even to term the baby. So women feel less able to demand payment like they used to and the result is feminized
poverty and no fathers. Fathers need to be IN THE HOME, and our welfare policies, supported by N.O.W. mold feminists, drive them out literally.
This is a large part of what I am personally trying to beat by pushing for plans like Veto4 Fathers, May...
V4F
Coincidentally, notice how YOU still cant bring yourself to support this simple plan of huge importance to restore respect for fathers so THEY WILL
RESPECT IT and can CHOOSE IT (only in terming directions) despite its importance in reversing these trends of fatherless homes. If men had no
excuse because they COULD overturn an abortion, all eyes focus BACK on the father, like it used to be, like it should be, instead of everyone and his
brother dumping it all on the woman. You should support it, as the worse that can happen is men wont use it and a FEW will who were responsible. I
think many would use it based on experience if they really HAD the power. And that is ultimately in womens best interest and childrens. If so many men
are jerks, they wont even TRY to contest an abortion which is their salvation, but the many innocent men who are losing heart will be saved by such
legislation, it wil inject new life into a stale argument abortion debate. If men had blood directly on their hands, less abortions would occur, benefitting
women as men would be expected to do alot more than no to prevent them from being an issue or at least occuring. To win, women are going to have
to give up this privilige at least unilaterally. Its the only way for men to give a darn about any of this. Right now, they too are saying pathetically that its
her body her choice, and her responsibility. They cant do that nearly as easily when they DO have a choice. Even better is no abortion. Despite the
claims of men simply running anyway, 1.6 million hormonal pregnant women are a good police force. The deluge would force society to force the men
involved to pay up. We have found a way to make women bear the physical scars of abortion and to solve these mens problems instead of expecting
the men to cough up the 18 year cash...
PLM
PLM, debate here can be deadly to unborn children (n/m)
Mary
Life commitment? Or life SENTENCE?!?
Fri Nov 19 20:52:21 1999
Dear Pat;
Right, that's just what I said. Toss out yer elderly relatives in the name of the free & unfettered ways o' the heart!
Actually, my point was that I think that it is fine for people to end lousy, boring marriages. You find that disgusting. I find it inexplicable for two people
(or, heck, several people if they polygamous) to remain chained together when they both/all want out. Stay together? To please whom?
Mary
Mary,
I won't lash out at you, but I want to tell you that someone dear to me is now going through hell because her husband has decided to two-time her. There have been considerable emotional problems with her, but he DID make a commitment he doesn't want to live up to.
I have spent many an hour in the wee hours of the morning, trying to comfort her and help her survive this critical situation, and it is devastating to her. She is deeply in love with her husband, and the situation is destroying her.
I am not talking about two people wanting to end it together, but please realize that there are a lot of situations where ONE person gets bored or whatever, and even when it seems like both choose to end it, it's not clear that deep down inside one of them isn't deeply hurt.
Even people who want to end their marriages often suffer very deeply.
So for the record, I am not a good person to talk to about causally ending a marriage these days. I see this kind of attitude as very destructive to everyone involved, and yes, I find it disgusting.
We cannot ignore our natural human bondings and expect to have a humane society. Doesn't work that way.
Pat
MommyAllTheTime/Byzantine Peace Offering
2 different kinds of self sacrifice
Fri Nov 19 15:15:46 1999
I think you guys are talking about two different kinds of self sacrifice. One being a healthy one and the other an unhealthy one. But believe it or not, I
think you're saying the same thing about self sacrifice in marriage.
Self sacrifice, as in, being unselfish and trying to always give your best to your marriage is one thing. Self sacrifice wherein you lose your self identity and
let yourself be mistreated is another. I think you're both talking about something in between these two.
I, for one, believe that "something in between the two" is the recipe for not just a healthy marriage but a emotionally mature self. If we can self sacrifice
without letting harm or negativity come our way then the "bigger" the person we are in the end.
Peace.
Self sacrifice doesn't mean being a doormat.
If someone is abusing you, you are better off to confront. It isn't good for the abuser to abuse, either.
Pat
LG
Inappropriate
Thu Nov 18 22:52:36 1999
I just hate that word! It make you so tall, while giving me a worm's eye view of the rest of the world. What, prey tell, should I have said?
LG
" Inappropriate
" I just hate that word! It make you so tall, while giving me a worm's eye view of the rest of the world. What, prey tell, should I have said?"
I'm not trying to be tall, but you are trying to make Tasha shorter than you are. As for what you should have said, that is a very long topic. All I will say right now is that comparing her to Mengele and saying she may abuse her animals in private isn't it.
You can try to figure out where Tasha is coming from, and lead her gently where you want her to go. If you don't know how to do that, watch the rest of us for awhile.
What you seem to fail to realize is that there is a very real possibility that Tasha is in denial. Not a certainty, but a strong possibility. Given that, everything hateful you say now to her will come back to haunt her later, and make it more difficult for her to heal. If she is going to turn against abortion, she HAS to heal. So what you are doing is inappropriate and counterproductive, and I deliberately used that word again.
You see, you would have two relatives right now, whom you would love dearly, if abortion HAD been illegal. Never forget that. The law was intended both to protect them, and you and your parents. The absence of the law is deadly, and the way you go about talking about this is showing us that you are one of the victims. You may not be pro-life, but you still realize that abortion is bad.
Pat
Mary
Knowing better.
Fri Nov 19 21:06:18 1999
Dear Pat;
You say that you "didn't think ANYONE would take those accusations seriously."
I, uh, took them seriously. That means either that I'm a dumb bunny incapable of other-than-literal thought, or that I know from experience how
depressing it is to be attacked and not defended. Which do you like better?
Mary
Mary,
How many times do I have to apologize to you?
Pat
Mary
I'm sorry.
Fri Nov 19 21:12:49 1999
Dear Pat;
I am sorry about the troubles of the person who is dear to you.
Mary
Apology accepted.
I just can't be that casual when there are feelings.
One thing I hope you realize about me by now is that I never viciously attack anyone directly. I will speak softly to a person who I disagree with, and if that doesn't work, I get more pointed, but I try never to be vicious. And I try to support the victim.
So I have a particular way to approach things.
I am becoming increasingly troubled by your own seeming casualness about some things. It showed itself here concerning "boring marriages," but I have seen it a couple of other times.
Glad you are still around. Please read my message above about hate speech, the one I am attempting to start a thread with.
Pat
Mary
But I knew better than THAT!
Fri Nov 19 21:16:42 1999
Dear Pat;
I'm sorry for the tone of that post. It's been Snippy Day with me, I guess.
Mary
OK.
I'm just hurting right now. We have those days, too.
Pat
Pat Goltz
Re: Knowing better.
Fri Nov 19 21:14:56 1999
Mary,
How many times do I have to apologize to you?
Pat
You don't. It's my fault. (n/m). Mary, Fri Nov 19 21:18
WiseGuy
Wisdom
Wed Nov 17 02:49:27 1999
Don't fool yourself: You have No Wisdom at your age! Your fiance has less than no wisdom! I don't mean to seem mean but life is more complex that
you suppose it is. At your age right and wrong seems clear and you have no inkling of the social structure beyond your immediate relationships. The
world IS complex! If you marry now you will suffer later. This is because it is going to take another decade for you to become who you are. I'm 35 and
only now contemplating marriage. I have met with many set backs and contradictions in life. For instance I have a masters degree and I'm a practicing
professional architect. I found out my mother was schizophrenic when I was 25 when she had a psychotic episode. I became ill at age 30 and lost
$12,000 paying the legal fees & etc. that resulted from my episode. I've been on medication ever since. I struggle everyday because the medicine make
me sleepy and forgetful. I have a high pressure job designing complex industrial projects. I have to struggle with the job because I need the $ to pay for
expensive drugs and to pay off horrible debts. The paradoxes are my high intelligence vs. my mental illness and my ability to make lots of money vs. my
pile of debts. I'm not saying my life is bad or that yours will be. I'm just saying that at 16, 18 or even at 24 I had no idea at all that my life would be like
this. How can you inflict youself on another person when neither he nor you knows who you really are? Please heed my advice for the sake of your
future children. They will be formed by the mold you create by your decisions. My advice comes to you from an understanding of life that has been
forged in a crucible of embarassment, pain, and mistakes. It is only from a certain depth of experience in life that you can make a good decision to
marry. Your aunt and others who married succesfully while young are the benificiaries of dumb luck. They are like two bullets hitting in mid-air. The
vast majority of young marriages result in broken homes and suffering children. Have you ever noticed that there are child geniuses in math and music
but no great child authors? This is because great authors draw on their life experiences to create their works. Likewise a great, lasting marriage that
provides security and love to children requires the same sort of life experience.
"Wise Guy,"
I see no evidence that Sarah plans to marry right now. By the time they plan to, they may both be a lot wiser.
You say there are no great child authors. Are you sure? And how about great child composers? Do you like Mozart? A lot of people do. He did great music when he was very young. No, it wasn't full of pathos. But it was still very good music. So some people can be creative at that level when young.
I think you are being unduly harsh.
And by the way, I am 55. So I've been around the block a few more times than you have.
I hope your problems work out. I know what deep debt is, and it ain't fun!
Pat
Mary
Casualness?
Fri Nov 19 21:21:58 1999
Dear Pat;
What am I casual about? Other than boring marriages?
Mary
Well, you've been a wee bit casual about women suffering after abortion, but not nearly as bad as some I've seen.
Pat
Cassie
suggestion
Sun Nov 7 14:15:20 1999
Andrea,
I suggest you talk with people who've adopted & who are looking to adopt. Hear their stories--how hard it can be, what is required. Ask about singles
trying to adopt. You may want to try the boards at www.parentsplace.com or www.adoption.com
I recomment at parentsplace that you DO NOT go into the birth parents board asking about this. They are VERY sensitive.
About being single & adopting. I would imagine it is much, much harder to adopt a baby being single. I've given up 2 babies for adoption. I never
considered anyone who was single. But there are people out there who do.
Cassie
andrea
Re: suggestion
Thu Nov 18 07:59:42 1999
thank you so much this has to be the most help i have recieved yet.
May
question for Pat
Mon Nov 8 11:35:43 1999
since you were with her at the moment she passed, do you feel this gave you new insight on things, like did she act in a certain manner to give you a
clue about what she was experiencing as she passed to the other side? In my case, she passed an hour after we left.
May,
The only insight I got was the peacefulness with which she willingly gave up life. That was a significant insight, but I can't know exactly how to interpret it.
Pat
Mary
But what is hate speech, really?
Fri Nov 19 21:32:21 1999
Dear Pat;
I sailed into LG because I think that what s/he said to Tasha was wildly unfair. Was calling LG a silly ass an example of hatespeech? Can invective be
violence? I think that it can if it is directed against a person who is vulnerable -- a person who risks being pushed out of the sphere of moral concern.
That is verbal violence. But I think that the appropriate response to this may well be equally vigourous invective.
Mary
Mary,
I don't think calling someone a silly ass is an example of hate speech, no matter WHY you say it, but I also agree that part of what makes something hate speech IS the vulnerability of the hearer. However, consider this: does constant criticism which is UNDESERVED, which borders on the vicious, but doesn't quite make it, even to someone who seems to be strong, count as hate speech? I think it does.
And I agree there are times when you have to confront in like terms. But you kinda have to know the recipient to know when. LG softened when it was called to his/her attention. Because LG is experiencing anguish over abortion, the initial reaction is understandable. We couldn't know that about him/her until we learned a little bit more. I am very glad I forebore.
There is some kind of threshold, and you didn't cross it, in my opinion.
Pat
Mary
No.
Fri Nov 19 21:34:48 1999
Dear Pat;
No, I have not been "casual about women suffering after abortion," and I don't know where you got that.
Mary
Just my perception.
We have different perspectives. I realize that from your perspective, you haven't been casual. But perhaps I have a better understanding of the anguish women have, because I have been there personally, at least to some extent. Given my views, I am going to look at it differently. I just would be much more open about my concern than you seem to be. I am not saying you aren't concerned, but rather than you are somewhat close with it. I'm not sure I can explain it beyond that. We just have different approaches, and yours is more casual than mine. So it's strictly from a particular viewpoint. Like I said, you are SOOOO much better than most pro-choice people I have run into, and I appreciate that very, very much. But beyond that, it's just the way I see it. Does that make any sense?
Pat
Mary
failure
Fri Nov 19 23:23:11 1999
Dear Pat;
I feel like I've failed awfully when you say that I've been casually about women's suffering. I don't feel too bad about being called casual about the value
of marriage because I'm not really sold on marriage in the first place (not that I'd do anything mean ala the situation you described).
Mary
Mary,
I hope you won't continue to feel you have failed because you have been more casual about women suffering from abortion than I'd like. I hope instead, you will spend time thinking about it and grow thereby.
I have a suggestion. I'd like for you to think about how other women may perceive their aborted children. Granted that you personally are unmoved by photos, and that you don't think they feel pain when they are aborted, some women DO think and feel this, and it is THEIR perception that causes them the pain.
I came across much more information fetal pain last night, and I will be making it available to you soon. This information is BOUND to get out, and it is going to affect women who didn't know about it beforehand, and had abortions based on lack of knowledge in this area.
You have a soft heart. I just regret deeply that your heart doesn't extend to the unborn. After all, I'm the kind of person who insists on looking for a solution where no one gets hurt, and I'm not satisfied until I find it.
Pat
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